<em>Game of Thrones</em> Season 3, Episode 9: &#8220;The Rains of Castamere&#8221;

And how perfect was it that there was no music at all over the credits? Reflected my stunned silence exactly! And I have to say it was even more brutal than it was in the book since in the show Rob was foolish enough to bring his wife. Whoa. Just…whoa. The definite motto for GOT in general: Don’t get too attached.

I can’t believe it… They even killed the Wolf!!

I’m sitting here in shock…

I had a bad feeling all through the wedding scenes, but when they closed the door and cued the music, I got a sinking feeling in my tummy.

You’re a brilliant mad bastard, GeorgeR.R. , but I love this show.

George George George… that was worse than the blow of Old Yeller. You are doomed, there is no redemption possible for this story, unless you packed two years of story into just the slow constant winning of the few remaining good guys. And I mean like.. they take everything away from them piece by piece. Im guessing that is not so, and that you just love to play the worst sort of tune to people with your writing. So, officially, sworn off HBO til the entire series is done.

I didnt like the changes, Jayne was never at the wedding, she is still alive near the end of book four while the Freys try to sack Riverrun. Also, they seriously downplayed the sacking of Yunkai, Ser Barriston and Jorah had to enter the city through the sewers and raise the gate to sack the city…. I dont get the major changes to the story. And where the hell is the Viper of Dorne!! That plays a huge part of book four and they have not even touched on it at all. Also, they have yet to touch on the Vale, way too much to still happen to wrap up in one episode. In fact I am pretty sure it will be impossible to do justice to the book in one more episode, very dissapointed…

Paul1111: You are thinking of the sacking of Meereen. Also we are still on book 3, not book 4. They have an entire season to cover book 4. Viper of Dorne will be introduced in the fourth season most likely.

Even after reading the book, I was shocked. It does spoil the Jayne Westerling character in future books.

I assume season 4 will introduce the Martells, blow through the 2nd half of the A Storm of Swords pretty quick then get into A Feast for Crows. I bet the show will run through FFC and DWD at the same time and be done with both at the end of Season 5.

How did the show confirm that the Blackfish is gay? You don’t have to be gay to not be attracted to Frey women.

Arya still has training to do to learn how and who to kill. Braavos really is the best place for her. She’s still too angry and unfocused to be the Stark’s assassin and agent of revenge, but she’ll learn.

Lady Belaine: In the books both Jeyne Westerling (Talisa) and the Blackfish stay at Riverrun.

Aeryl: By that logic Edmure doesn’t survive the Red Wedding. Unless I see the Blackfish dead on screen I won’t believe he’s dead in the series. He’s still an excellent battle commander who could team up with BWB or go back to the Vale.

Lady Belaine: They never introduced Dacey Mormont. She could be portrayed as the laughing woman during Lord Umber’s speech where he elevates Robb to King in the North (That’s who I like to think she is because she deserves some screen time). Unfortunately many of Robb’s bannermen were cut due to time constraints. She does die in the Red Wedding though. The Smalljohn Umber also dies, while the Greatjohn is injured, captured, and held at the Twins.

Thank you I really enjoyed your comment, but nope I don’t like Dany. Why coz her army seems invincible ,no flaws ,no losses, 3 guys liberating a city as if it’s Tera or world of warcraft, it does not seem real and with those dragons pff. I will continue to watch until the 1st episode of the 4th season maybe the north will rise …if not ,no worries Vikings is great also.

@64 – roslin carrying a tully heir does make a difference. direct succession of a true tully keeps the vassals and underlords in check. if the freys just invade riverrun, the tully vassals are honorbound to keep fighting them. the exact same reason tyrion is under orders to get sansa pregnant forthwith. the northmen will have a hard case against him if tyrion’s child is a true stark.

@59 – the laughing woman would have to have been dacey’s mother, maege mormont, who rules bear island since jorah went into exile. in the book, she went toward moat cailin, i think, while robb went to the wedding with dacey and the rest of his honor guard.

i can’t believe they staged that so caitlin was within arm’s reach of walder frey and she took his useless teenage wife instead. she should have taken lord walder hostage to force his men to put down their weapons. and if they didn’t, then at least his murder would have been a satisfying final act.

we all know blackfish was in the privy, heard what was up, jumped out a window and swam for it (like robb’s squire in the book) and will be back in riverrun in short order. (i can’t believe i thought arya might actually save grey wind for a second. she couldn’t save ned. and of course the wolf has to die. the freys can’t control it, everyone fears it, and grey wind was a huge part of robb’s battle legend.)

The North is not the Riverlands. No one has successfully invaded the North without first taking Moat Cailin. That makes a load of difference. The Freys do not take control over the Riverlands in a legal sense (remember Petyr Baelish is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands from his seat in the Vale/Harrenhal), but in a military sense the Freys and Lannisters control the former Tully bannermen and those bannermen are welcomed back into the King’s peace. So the Tully Frey baby isn’t as important to the Riverland nobles as a Stark marriage is to the North since the North still has around 30,000 fighting men who didn’t go south who are looking to a Stark for leadership in actuality or as a facade.

As she is never formally introduced she just the laughing woman at the King in the North Speech. I just like to think of her as Dacey Mormont because I like Dacey Mormont’s character. She’s like Brienne but loyal to Robb.

After this episode i am just gonna stop watching game of thrones ffs …. Why should Rob and Catelyn be murdered ?? I think Rob should survive … now this series is meaningless…

@Littlefinger87 Where are you getting your number of 30,000 troops still left in the North? In the books and in the show it is made pretty clear that Rob EMPTIED the north of basically all of the available troops when he went south. That is why when the Ironborn invade there is no army available to push them back effectively. In the books Ser Rodrik Cassel, the man who was orignally accompanying Catelyn south, led a small force of about 300-500 men to throw back the “raiders”. That group was composed mostly of the remainder of Winterfell house guards and support from another Stark bannerman. In later books another northern army is assembles but it is less than 30k and if I remember correctly is actually under 10k.

To eveyone asking about Dancy Mormont and the other Stark bannermen, aside form Roose Bolton none of them have had any real prominance in the show, save for Lord Karstark, who Robb was “forced” to execute earlier in the season. Being a TV show there just isn’t the screen time available to include everyone. As well done as the Red Wedding was last night, it is really only a shadow of the books redition. For true effect you really need to read the books.

I was also bothered by The Blackfish being at the wedding. He wasn’t there in the books, having been left behind to hold Riverrun. The thing is, since the show waited sooooo long to introduce his character, if they left him behind at Riverrun the viewing audience wouldn’t remember who he was later on. As it is, the average viewer has enough trouble keeping track of all of the characters. He was there, and he conviently left before the main event, and will likely live to fight another day.

The other thing everyone should keep in mind is that Robb, in the books and in the show, is actually quite young. In the books he is 16 when he leads his men south. He wins a number of battles, but none of them are very decisive. He has many seasoned advisors helping him lead his men along the way, but ultimately he is/was a fool when it came to politics and rational thinking. His marrying of the Westerling girl/Telisa stands out as his largest mistake. But also not keeping Lord Bolton close to him. He should have sent a mored trusted bannerman out in his place, perhaps Karstark or an Umber.

I could go on and on critisizing his mistakes but really I think it comes down to this. Robb was never in a position to win anything. He was doomed as soon as he marched south. He didn’t have the numbers or the support to beat the Lannisters. It is for his surviving siblings to exact vengence on the those who have wronged their family.

That is all…
For an indepth review of the episode you should check out A Chat of Ice and Fire on itunes. Should be available for download by Wednesday night.

Oh poor Catelyn…..Going on and on about how she failed all of her children because she wasn’t there. When the irony is that the only Stark kid to die is Robb.
@julio Abel. This is one of the big problems adapting to screen. Dany is not in such a good place durring the sacking of these cities. They have left out almost all of the flaws. At this point Dany’s army is starving, she is suspicious of pretty much all of her advisors aside from Grey Worm. Her Dragon’s aren’t half so big, sure they could fry a man, but hardly lay waste much else. And she finds out that sacking cities doesn’t work so well if don’t stick around to ensure they keep to your way of thinking.
TL:DR Dany’s army is a big stinking mess of starving people, the cities she sacks just go right back to business as usual, and she can’t trust anyone. That’s a bit more compeling.
As far as Starks go, remember only three have died, and one of those three…..Well just wait and see. Arya has pretty good ways to go, but he story is pretty awesome. And Jon snow should be looking to come into his own rather soon.
The lannisters get thiers soon enough, not directly by Stark hands, but it happens. In pretty epic fasion.
Not sure what to tell you about the Frey’s they get picked off here and there, but meh the Red Wedding was probably the only epic thing they ever did. They aren’t especially weathly and other than the crossing don’t have much power.

Didn’t read the books but I saw that coming all along the episode, lots of clever foreshadowing. And fuck that was a deliciously cruel ending, a big middle finger to all these shitty happy endings everywhere. This story is juste brilliant :)

Kirshy: Lord Manderly held back much of his troops from the contingent that went south. The Umbers, Karstarks, Boltons all have remaining men who didn’t go south. The 20,000 men that Robb brought south were probably the best of the fighters (ages 16-35), but that doesn’t mean that it was all the men. Originally the plan was to free Ned from a King’s Landing jail so it wasn’t necessary to take every single man from his house to serve in the army.

You seem to forget that men are needed to run the economy of the North. They are in no fit state to send more men south, but they still need to be controlled. and given the distance between the North and King’s Landing it is in the Lannister’s best interest to create the Bolton Stark marriage facade.

Kirshy: Robb won no decisive battles? Are you smoking something. The battle of the camps he faces a huge numerical disadvantage and captures the Kingslayer.

Battle of Oxcross another numerical disadvantage and still wins.

Granted both of thos battles were won because of the element of surprise and the attacker being on horseback as opposed the to the unprepared footmen sleeping in their unprotected camps. Still, these were monumental victories. There is a reason why the lords of the Riverlands recognize Robb as their new king. He saved their asses from certain defeat. If Robb took Casterly Rock as i outlined above, Tywin would have to sue for peace. He’d lose his army if he couldn’t pay for it. Robb could hire more sellswords, talk with Manderly and have his fleet attack King’s landing (Why did he ever trusted the Greyjoys ugh)

Given the men and material that Robb had and his position before he goes West to attack Oxcross, Robb was winning the war. If he takes the Rock, the Lannisters are done at that point. Tywin would be forced to march West to retake it meaning he’d have to get past the reunited riverlands forces, plus the Vale through Littlefinger might have joined Starks side by this point. And the Tyrell’s are always good at smelling roses.

@82

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Robb did not win any decisive victories. He did win victories, very impressive ones but not any decisive ones. The best comparison would probably be the 2nd punic war. Hannibal won a significant number of very impressive victories against superior armies and number. But none of them were decisive. They did not put him in a position to actually take Rome and end the war. Similarly, Robb won victories; but none of them allowed him to take or even threaten King’s Landing or Casterly Rock in a meaningful way.

If Ned was alive, capturing Jaime would have been enough to end the war. Once Ned was dead and Robb was king, Jaime was not enough to end the war. A war of indpendence drastically raised the stakes.

Oxcross was also huge but not enough to let Robb take Casterly Rock. The defeated army fell back to Lannisport. Robb would have had to choose between seiging the Rock, Lannisport, or trying to take both.
Siege Casterly Rock and the Lannisport army can harass you while Tywin advances, combines forces and smashes you against the castle. Attacking Lannisport has the same problems. Attempting to take both only weakens you against Tywin. Robb didn’t have the men for it. The point of taking Horse was to stay mobile not to commit to an attack. Sieges require foot. Commiting to the siege would likely have freed Tywin to smash Stannis at King’s Landing before moving towards Casterly Rock since Tywin could be reasonably sure that the Rock would hold till he arrived. This was something Robb was trying to avoid, since he wanted Stannis to be free to assualt King’s Landing.

Taking Casterly Rock through trickery would have been a risky proposition for a lot reasons. Jaime would have been expected to lead the party that rescued him. A merely unconscious rider wouldn’t have cut it. News of the Oxcross would have preceded them, the Castellan of the Rock should have an idea of which Lords were captured at Oxcross and known not to open the gates. Also, are there speech differences between the regions? I can’t remember but if there are that would be another impediment. Additionally, you risk losing your prized prisoner.

1) You only risk losing the prisoner if Jaime is returened to Casterly Rock meaning the gates opened to let him in. If the gates did open there is a great chance you can take the castle since Robb’s forces greatly outnumber the garrison.

2) Jaime has been held captive for a long time. It’s not too far of a stretch to imagine he might be injured/tortured during his captivity which would render him unable to ride a horse unassisted.

3) No other Lannister bannermen need be used besides Jaime since there really is no other prisoner with enough clout to open the gates. It’s Northmen and rivermen in Lannister armor taken from the captured and slain at Oxcross.

4) No speech differential between the regions. The rivermen trade with the West regularly. Some probably have been inside Casterly Rock before for a wedding.

1) You only risk losing the prisoner if Jaime is returened to Casterly Rock meaning the gates opened to let him in. If the gates did open there is a great chance you can take the castle since Robb’s forces greatly outnumber the garrison.

Or if he escapes while in Lannister lands. In friendly lands, he can rely on the support of the local populace. Pretty much the opposite of the journey to King’s Landing. And you risk actual rescue along the way if you’re discovered. Or the Castellan sees through the ruse and mounts a sortie to rescue Jamie. Or you’re attacked and Jaime dies in the fighting. You can lose Jaime without him going free, he can die.

Also the gates opening doesn’t mean you can take the castle. You need to be able to keep the gates open. A smart Castellan isn’t going to open the gates for more than 20 men outside them, and thrice that waiting inside.

2) Jaime has been held captive for a long time. It’s not too far of a stretch to imagine he might be injured/tortured during his captivity which would render him unable to ride a horse unassisted.

A reasonable point but then why risk Jaime at all? Why not find someone with similiar build/ hair?

3) No other Lannister bannermen need be used besides Jaime since there really is no other prisoner with enough clout to open the gates. It’s Northmen and rivermen in Lannister armor taken from the captured and slain at Oxcross.

I understand this. My point is the Lannisters at Casterly Rock should know that those lords whose armor they are wearing were taken. Their banners and sigils should be a major red flag that something is wrong. Also wasn’t the Lannister army mostly foot? If so, what are 2000-6000 mounted men doing outside the castle in good order? (I am assuming at least a 4:1 ratio would be brought for overwhelming force)
And no Castellan worth his salt is going to open that gates with an army outside within striking distance, without making very sure that is friendly. He would look for at least a few other lords that he knew. Also what do you do if scouts ride up and question you as you approach the castle? Kill them? That’s not suspicious at all. What if Jaime somehow warns them? Do you kill him?

4) No speech differential between the regions. The rivermen trade with the West regularly. Some probably have been inside Casterly Rock before for a wedding.
Fair enough, I couldn’t remember if any of the regions had distinctive accents (they totally should). In which case you would need men who could convinvingly pass for westlanders.

All of this isn’t to say it couldn’t be done. But it is significantly more risky than you make it sound.

Also. You want ROBB STARK, the son of EDDARD STARK, the man who was so noble he couldn’t bribe the city watch, to mount a sneak attack under false colours? I’m sorry but that wolf just won’t hunt.

Thomas Cardew: Since he’s in the hands of the army there isn’t much risk of a rescue. Given that he was successfully held even through Tyrion’s escape attempt shows that a good captor could keep Jaime penned in. Also, given the fact that he just won at Oxcross the local populace is terrified of the Young Wolf. Not exactly the best time to mount a rescue against a seemingly unstoppoable foe.

As you have the Smalljohn and the Greatjohn in your army, it is not unreasonable to say that if the gates are opened they can be kept open. Even Jaime admits that the Greatjohn is stronger than him and an equal fighter. Not to mention, they have the Blackfish with them too. Look at what Dany did with Daario, Grey Worm, and Jorah. You get 20 men into the gates with the element of surprise all you need to do is hold out untile the rest of your mounted army comes rushing through the gate.

You aren’t picturing the scene as I do. There isn’t any space to mount a sortie to. You ride up to the gate, and demand to be let in. You say that Tyrion’s escape attempt worked, but the Kingslayer is badly injured and needs medical attention. Since you are up close it’s better to have the real Kingslayer with you. If Jaime dies in the fighting, he dies in a fair fight. This is war.

2) Don’t fly banners and sigils of lords that were captured. Also given that Oxcross is only two days ride from Casterly Rock it’s unlikely that the full tale reached the Rock as the army retreated to Lannisport not the Rock. There were many lords on horseback in Jaime’s original army + Tywin has many mounted lords.

How is this plan any different from attacking a foe at night? Which Robb has no problem doing in the Whispering wood and the Battle of the Camps and Oxcross. It’s just another form of deception.

rOB IS DEAD. ROB WAS AN IDIOT. ROB KILED HIS MOTHER. HE DESERVED TO DIE! You do not have the choice to fall in love you moron. You are part of a powerplay for the freaking throne you spoiled blubering idiot. You have commitments to the men her serve your, the people under your protection, and you CHOOOOOSEEEEEE to toss them to the wolves? I knew as soon as he did that bone headed choice he was dead and he would bring terrible death on those around him. If you failed to see it, you just wanted to play fantasy with a series that is brutally real. Recall his fathers words about honor and duty. He failed. He failed by his own stupid lustful desire.

I don’t understand why book people think that Jeyne W. might have been pregnant…her mom, who obviously plotted to use her daughter as a means to bring Robb down (or if he pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won his war against the Lannisters, have Jeyne be Queen of the North), told Jaimie in no uncertain terms that she’d been sneaking Jeyne moon tea (Jeyne thought it was fertility tea, and was in tears when he mom told Jaimie this). Killing Talisa makes sense because Jeyne has no further use in the story. Her family was paid and a suitable marraige was arranged…

I felt much more sorry for book Robb than show Robb. Book Robb was a kid, a horny, naive teenager who was a talented strategists, but in waaay over his head. The Westerlings completely okey-doked him (I doubt Jeyne knew–she was a silly little horny/love sick teenager herself). Even Jaimie Lannister thought it was a shame that Robb lost the war in the bedroom as opposed to the battlefield.

Show Robb was a moron though. Old enough to know better–at least book Robb succumbed to temptation after finding out his stupid mistake (trusting Theon) killed both his little brothers. Walder Frey called it–show Robb let ‘firm tits and a tight fit,’ be his downfall. He deserved it. I felt bad for Cat though…

I love this show so much. Every episode is better than the last, and “The Rains of Castamere” was no exception. Even though I had read the books and have essentially been holding my breath all year waiting for this moment, it was still amazing. I’ve never seen a single scene adapted from a book move so perfectly to the screen, Could not have been done better. Just…WOW. I watched it on the light rail on my way in to work some overtime at DISH on Sunday. I watched it on my iPad using my DISH Anywhere app, which lets me watch live or recorded TV off my home receiver. I’m really looking forward to see what happens next week, too!

Isilel: No fortress is impregnable. The walls are only as good as the men who guard them. The Rock has stood for such a long time because of the political machinations of those who have made their home there, not because the fortress was impregnable. The lords of the West have knwn when it’s the right time to bend the knee and when to exert their influence.

Actually Casterly Rock did fall because of the deception of Lann the Clever during the Age of Heroes which is why it’s called Casterly Rock and not Lannister Rock.

As I said before, the rivermen that Robb had traded with the West on a regular basis so even if there were a difference between the northmen and the Westermen, the Rivermen could pull off the Westermen accent to fool a couple guardsmen.

Once you are inside the gate, it’s all over. The northmen have a superior numerical advantage (500 vs. 8000) and are all horsed which gives you the option as a commander to fight either horsed or unhorsed: a tactically superior positionn.

In the books, Tywin is forced into a tough choice: save his children in King’s Landing or protect his home. He actually chooses to try to cross the fords to get at Riverrun and is repulsed by Edmure. As he’s thrown back he gets word of Stannis’ attack and moves southeast quickly to join forces with the Tyrells and attack Stannis in the rear.

If Robb uses this time to take Casterly Rock, it wouldn’t have mattered what happened in King’s Landing as Robb would be the new lord of Casterly Rock with all the gold, power, and prestige that comes with that. There’s no way Tywin could get Roose Bolton or Walder Frey to betray Robb after he did that. That would be a decisive victory to use the above parlance.

9/10 times the ploy will work. If you create the illusion of an emergency situation the doors will open. You are the castellan of Casterly Rock and your lord’s son is requesting immediate medical attention. All of the party are wearing Lannister uniforms. How would getting into the first courtyard get you killed like fish in a barrel? Who would do the killing? There are only 500 men in Casterly Rock at this point in the story. Ask yourself, why did Winterfell fall? Because Theon used deception to empty the castle then climbed over the walls with 30 men and took it by force.

Kirshy: A coouple things. Tywin starts out the war with 60,000 men half of which he gives to Jaime. So Tywin has around 30,000 men when he faces off against Roose Bolton. Given the losses of that battle + the attack on the fords + what he loses to save King’s Landing he’s left with about 20,000 by this point in the story.

Sure taking the Rock is a moot point now. I am just arguing for it because you believe there was no way Robb could win and that’s not true.

Yes, stormin a castle is a risky affair if you are just storming it without using any form of deception. But throughout history many sieges end because the weakest point of the wall, the gate, is opened either by force or through deception. There seems to be an aura of invincibility that surrounds the Lannisters when in actuality, they could have lost this war multiple times (Arya through Jaquen Hagaer could have killed Tywin, Robb’s potential taking of the Rock).

As I said before, Casterly Rock has been captured once before. AND WINTERFELL IS A FORTRESS. I can use caps too:)

I said 30,000 men left in the north, I never said that they would march 30,000 more men south. That number is purely to represent the amount of actual men not all of whom are of fighting age that are left in the north. This number is only important for the Boltons, Stannis, and the Freys in terms of controlling the remaining population.

Tell that (Robb was never winning the war) to Tyrion Lannister after Whispering Wood or Oxcross. Robb was a genius tactician that even Tywin recognizes is a dangerous enemy. Robb destroyed half of the Lannister army 25 out of the 30,000 men given to Jaime at the Whispering Wood and Battle of the Camps. He then took out a 15,000 man army led by Stafford Lannister at Oxcross. And he did this all while sustaining minimal losses without another major house coming to his aid. Imagine what would happen if the Vale called it’s banners and helped Robb out or if Littlefinger arranged a marriage with Robb to the Tyrells.

The real point of this whole debate can be summed up with two sentences: Whoever controls Casterly Rock controls Littlefinger. Whoever controls Littlefinger wins the war of the Five Kings. Yup he’s that important. If you don’t believe me, just wait and you’ll see.

Don’t worry Sansa will get hers. She definitely has some influence coming up.

Aeryl: So in the actual scheme of things, Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, Littlefinger aren’t important? Ludicrous statement. Politcal reality is always important.

You do know that the Others aren’t invulnerable. They have weaknesses to several things: Dragon fire, Valyrian steel, and obsidian (dragon glass).

That’s a gross mischaracterization of Littlefinger. That line “king of the ashes” is said by Aerys Targaryen shortly before Jaime Lannister sticks a sword in his back. Littlefinger wouldn’t want to be king of the ashes. I imagine he would think that a waste of good profit making land and peasants.

Since Littlefinger isn’t in King’s Landing, but in one of the only untouched regions in in all of Westeros (the Vale) he stands a pretty good chance of survivng the Others Invasion and a hard winter. I can’t say he’ll survive the dragons but Dany has little reason to love or hate Littlefinger at this point.

JanDSedai: That’s not the given reason why Robb doesn’t take Casterly Rock. The reason is storming the castle would be too costly in terms of manpower and lack of siege equipment. Robb’s host was horsed so the only real siege equipment that they were capable of building were crude battering rams that only worked to bring down ruined castles like the Crag.

Lannisport’s army was nearly destroyed by Robb at the battle of Oxcross. 15,000 men under the command of Ser Stafford lannister left Lannisport and about 5000 men came back. Devan Lannister, Stafford’s son, was then left with a mostly untrained and depleted force against Robb’s mounted force. This is why Robb’s force gains free control of the Westerlands and is able to raid multiple castles and pillage the countryside.

Sea traffic had nothing to do with it. Holding Lannisport had nothing to do with it. If you look at a Westeros map you can attack Casterly Rock overland.

If Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister, and Littlefinger aren’t really important why spend so much time on them?

Considering the army of the Others is mostly made up of zombie corpes that can be set on flame it’s not really too much of a threat to anyone that’s in a castle like Wintefell that has been warded off against the others centuries ago like the Wall has.

Littlefinger didn’t bring the Vale into the War which saved that countryside from a lot of the devastation of the war. 50,000 men in the Vale say that they are prepared to at least fight the threat. Whether they win will depend on the supply of obsidian and valyrian swords. Fomented a civil war? You and I have argued about this in the past. I think most of the fault truly lies with Cercei Lannister as she actually is responsible for Robert Baratheon’s death, not Littlefinger.

Since Samwell Tarly survived to tell all about the Others and zombies beyond the Wall, the realm isn’t totally ignorant of the danger.

Stannis is right in the path of the Others at the moment in the books. If he doesn’t get into Winterfell himself he might be toast.

Lols. You are bring out the full murder definition aren’t you. Personally, I don’t believe that’s true.There is another interpretation where Littlefinger is just covering up his past crime which indirectly causes the Stark-Lannister open hostility.

It was no big secret that at the beginning Eddard Stark and Tywin Lannister didn’t like each other. The relationship was “close to blows.”
Littlefinger used this starting point of hatred and definitely used it to his advantage. If you are predisposed to think badly about someone it is easy to pour on falsehoods and half-truths which paint a personin a darker light. Considering who really tried to stab Bran, Littlefinger isn’t that far off. Both Jaime, Cercei, Catelyn, Eddard and Joffrey are all culpable for escalating the tension between those two Houses. It’s not all on Littlefinger although I do not wholly absolve him of all blame.

Considering that Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark are the two actual people responsible for the destruction of the Riverlands they are still culpable for leaving Westeros ripe for invasion by the Others.

Sam also told members of the maesters. If the maesters hate dragons, they may hate the Others even more.

http://www.watchcartoononline.com/adventure-time-season-4-episode-2a-web-weirdos … ~ I find #AdventureTime is a serious cure for the #BadJuJu inflicted by the Red Wedding and other such Thrones-themed nastiness…

Alan Brown: Winterfell is described as castle as well and it fell. The Rock’s actual defenses aren’t listed in the canon. It’s stood as long as it has because few armies ever got near enough to try. Given that there are only 500 men defending it at the time versus 8000 men assailing it Casterly Rock would fall. We can argue over how many casualties the North would suffer. My guess is about 2000 which is probably an overestimation given how few defenders there really are. Casterly Rock is well worth this amount of casualties. Also given that Oxcross just happened it is highly unlikely that Devan Lannister would try to assail Robb’s force and risk losing both the Rock and Lannisport.

Once the horsemen get into the castle, they can fight on foot if necessary, but I disagree with your assessment of cavalry being a disadvantage in close quarters. Against pikemen and heavy spearment cavalry are vulnerable, but against swordsmen, even in close quarters, the height advantage of the horse gives them the upper hand. These are household guards trained and equipped with swords not spears and pikes.

My point about Yunkai was about the ability of a few men to hold the gate open so that more men would be able to come through it. I know that 3 men can’t take an entire city or castle.

@148 I think you DRASTICALLY underestimate how effective castles are as defensive strucutures. Let me reference the Siege of Stirling in 1304. 30 scottish soldiers were able to hold the castle for 4 months against the English army. The size of the English army is disputed but they had 12 siege enginges, including one they built there which filled 30 wagons when disasembled and took 5 master caprteners and 49 laborers at least 3 months to finish. Based on the number of siege engines and the militarily superiorty of England during the war, I say we could safely say the English army was at least 3000 men. So with 100:1 advantage and equipment designed to take the castle, it took the English 4 months to capture a castle.

Second, calavary are definitely not an advantage when actually assualting a castle. They WOULD have to fight on foot inside the castle. The Red Keep with it’s large enough doors and rooms for Ned and Tywin to ride in, is a huge aberation. Castles are cramped places, Casterly Rock which was carved out of a hill would be especially cramped. Have you seen tunnels made before modern technology? When you make a tunnel with a pick axe, you make it as small as you possibly can to fit what you need.

And calvary suck in close quarters. Calavary need room to maneuver, build momentum and strike. Most of their attacks are downward slashes, which require room, especially room to not hit the guy next to you. This means foot can swarm you. On top of a that you are sitting on an extremely vulnerable usually unarmored horse. WHEN that horse gets killed, you’re probably trapped under it as easy pickings.

IF you do bring your horses in with you, they’re generally stuck in the courtyard beyond the gate taking up room and preventing you from bringing in more men through the already tight botttleneck of the gate. And you still have to take in the inner keep.

There is a lot more I could object to but without schematics for the castle, I’ll just let what I’ve said suffice.

So did they think doing what they did to Grey Wind’s and Robb Stark’s bodies in the book as going too far on the TV? Imagine the outrage about that! heh.

ned is dead, robb is dead, rickon is so young, bran is a witch :). think a bastard will carry the banner for Starks :). by the way, i assume that the season finale will be very disappointing cos the 9th episode was a shocker. how can another episode be more shocking? They will make us wait for a long long time to see a better episode…

Thomas Cardew: In the Siege of Stirling was the main gate breached? Were there 3000 English soldiers inside the castle breaking down the lesser gates and fortifications? If not, not really relevant to the conversation.

Where did you get the idea that Casterly Rock had tunnels. There are some sea ports at the base of the mountain and tunnels that go to those ports but Robb’s men certainly wouldn’t need to go through tunnels to attack the Lannister men inside the castle. Think Minas Tirith where the rider could comfortably ride 3 abreadst.

I agree that castles are eneormously difficult to take, but they can and have been taken both in real life and in this fantasy story. Throughout the course of the 5 books we know that Winterfell, Dragonstone, and Storm’s End are taken by either deception or by force.

The horse was the medieval tank. You do see the heavy mail plate that Robb wears all the time. He is riding with his heavy horse when he goes West. Guardsmen with swords are no match for heavy horse.

Whether it takes 3 hours, 3 days, or 3 weeks (depending on the ingenuity of the castellan) for Casterly Rock to fall it doesn’t really matter. There are no Lannister reinforcements led by a competent general that could reach the Rock in time to perform a hammer and anvil maneuver. Without reinforcements, the 500 men inside would die. Robb would be the King in the North, Riverlands, and the West.

Thomas Cardew:

Minas Tirith was built into the Rock as well, but it didn’t have tunnels. Tywin marches his own army out of the Rock through the Lion’s Mouth so if horse can get out, they can get in.

The Rock is usually well defended, but Tywin leaves only a small garrison behind when he send 60,000 men into the Riverlands. Greywind, Robb’s direwolf finds a secret passageway into the West (the horse had to go through single file) that allows Robb to surprise Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross. Stafford and Tywin were relying on a castle called the Golden Tooth to prevent the northerners and riverlanders from invading the West. This plan backfired terribly which is why Robb had free reign to circumnavigate the entire West. He goes as far north as the Crag which is in the northwest part of the West close to the Iron Islands.

Did I not state before that Robb’s forces would take casualties. I said he would lose up to 2000 of his troops. I know that horses aren’t invulnerable. Neither are castles. I am not arguing that he will come out of this with his entire army intact. I am arguing that he could take the castle. Yes it will be bloody, but it will win him the war in one stroke and that is well worth 2000 northern lives.

1. Tywin is on the other side of Westeros dealing with Stannis. If he force marches he will have to first face the army at the fords of Riverrun that just threw his force back and the remaining northern army headed by Roose Bolton (around 14,000 men).

2. The shattered army at Lannisport is shattered. There’s only 5000 of them under Devan Lannister. They are poorly trained fishermen of Lannisport. Think leather clad levies with 20 days of training with a sword. Robb doesn’t have supply lines, he’s on horseback feeding off the wealth and bread of the West. It’s not a siege. It’s a sneak attack at night.
3. Balon Greyjoy didn’t become King in the North by taking a couple castles, but that’s what he called himself anyway.

If Robb takes the Rock he gets the loyalty of Littlefinger. This is huge. Littlefinger holds the fate of 100,000 troops (50,000 Tyrells and 50,000 Arryns from the Vale). Littlefinger’s only loyal to Tywin because it’s in his best interest to serve the wealthiest most powerful man in the realms. When Robb takes the Rock suddenly he’s the most powerful man in the realm. The Lannister Tyrell alliance might not even happen if Robb takes it while Littlefinger is en route to Bitterbridge.

Pictures of Casterly Rock look eerily similar to Minas Tirith which is why I made the comparison. There were tunnels to escape, but the main entranceway to attack could fit three or four horse abreadst.

since the West had hitherto untouched by the war, there’s plenty of foodstuff for an army of 8000 and horses.

it was the most impressing scenes that Ive ever seen.i dont know why in evrey episode 9 the death is coming?

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